With apologies to the good chart-addicted people at TOD and to all their highly-paid think-this-thing-to-death counterparts at RAND and other think tanks, arguing about what systematic fixes to deploy just now (and in the future) is very likely a lost cause at this point.
Awhile back, a friend at work asked me what could be accomplished if, say, the rulers of the world were to decree some fairly extreme changes in the way we do things here on our little blue planet. I forget the exact example she used, but it was something on the order of keeping all wintertime thermostats set no higher than 62F or banning non-essential vehicle travel or everyone dropping coal and using sustainable alternatives instead. (she is a big Friedman fan, if that says anything) My answer was that such thinking has already supposed a number of things that don’t currently exist: that any such edicts could be enforced universally enough to make a difference; that the powers-that-be possess the means to adequately communicate these things to people; that people will universally agree that such-and-such is a good idea and that everyone should do it; and that such things are even feasible at that scale – or any other.
Thanks to what I can only call the mentally corrosive effect of living in the Apollo era (which we’re still in, sadly, judging by that quote of Julie Payette’s that Patz posted in the previous thread , and which has morphed into an era which is not just information-rich but grotesquely oversaturated with information) we’re currently saddled with certain historically odd notions and points of view:
- awarenesses of (and obsessions about) trivial faraway events of all types;
- the notion that folks in village A can in any way affect events in distant village B;
- a sense that there exist the unlimited means to implement things systematically;
- a sense that everything everywhere matters somehow, that each of us is important or unique;
It was not just the raw technical progress of the past century and a half that was fueled by the black gold and its close cousins; these same very potent energies were also behind the way the new technologies of the era were able to be spread rapidly from inventions in one place to mass production of the same thing in many places just a decade or less later. The trend has been toward ever-faster rolling-out of new things in many more places. In one of his books (Marooned in Realtime) Vernor Vinge covered this subject rather nicely when he spoke of what he called the approaching singularity ~ when things would become obsolete oh so much faster than they are even today.
On more websites than I would care to name, one can find plenty of impassioned discussion on the “recipes for sustainable community” that we could design now and roll out over the coming years. News flash, people: top-down command economies are as bad an idea now – and are every bit as fundamentally unworkable now – as they were when the old Soviet Union thing first gained traction. And if some bloggers at the TOD think tank (or our old pal Ryan Crocker from “A Lifeboat Called Utopia”, or Amory Lovins, or the RAND people) imagine that their pet schemes for putting up enormous wind-turbine farms outside each town, biomass heat energy plants for each town, etc, can be implemented as easily as broadcasting the nightly lotto results (now in HDTV) to every glowing screen in Kansas or Missouri or Nebraska, they’ve proved in spades that they’ve fallen victim to the delusions of the times as enumerated above. If you must encounter folks like that, just smile, nod, and back away politely.
People have asked me what I’d do if they put me in charge of [whatever]. That’s so the wrong question. None of us are potentates, and even the official potentate hasn’t got enough guns, thugs, bribe money, or empty prison cells needed to enforce edicts like the ones mentioned above in the second paragraph. Sorry, there is no waving of the sparkly wand that results in hundreds of millions of westerners leaving their cars at home and walking to work the next day, or results in all the inefficient structures being torn down and replaced with passive-solar / masonry-chimney heated earth-bermed, cob, or straw bale houses.
No, the correct question to ask to someone is what they’ve done that’s worked out for them, or what they’re thinking about doing that they could actually do and might actually work. Not all of us will have the same answers, but that’s OK because we all live in different places and under different circumstances and conditions. We’re all as unique and different as flakes of snow, blades of grass, or grains of sand. Get used to this, please.
The city of Fitchburg could put the Nashua river to fantastic use for water power .. I think it drops at least a hundred feet within the city proper. Ditto for Schenectady and the Mohawk River. But will these cities do these things? Can they afford to do these things? Perhaps not.
What I did for transportation during this part of TLE would not work for everyone: the only reason I can get away with using such a minimal vehicle (for the UPL anyway) is that I’m single and live very close to work .. and if the weather is really horrible, I can usually find someone to give me a lift instead. Does this mean I think everyone should get the same kind of car? Heck no .. and I think it’s already been shown elsewhere that just the energy needed to roll out a 120M-sized fleet of those would take up many /years/ of our country’s oil use.
What GB or FAR have done for gardening does not work out for people who’ve got no access to open space or who live in places where the natural environment cannot support that type of growth. The same sort of gardens wouldn’t quite work right in the hot sandy dustbowls of Phoenix or Vegas without a lot more rainfall than comes down naturally. Ditto for the arid Rocky Mountains area or the former prairie.
For all I know, the city of Fitchburg could get more use out of that water power by using it to run a nifty mechanical irrigation system that allows them to do terrace farming there, instead of using it to run a handful of electric buses or power the flatscreens at night so people can check the Powerball results or watch “I Love Lucy” reruns. But will they do this? That’s up to them. For all I can tell, Fitchburg might well be as burned out and useless as Detroit within a dozen years.
There are no “solutions” to roll out en masse in the same way radio, powered flight, automobiles, television, penicillin, and nuclear weapons were rolled out in the previous century. When the time comes, your solutions will be what you and your neighbors think up on your own, what you can do with your own hands and with the materials around you, and what suit your own needs. Arguing about universal technical solutions, the way that dolt Friedman covers them in his books, is as laughable as pretending to be king of the universe – it is just a passing delusion of the times.
Until we get past this hump, individually and collectively, the so-called Doomer community is engaged in so much navel-gazing and little else.
[many thanks to the people who've left such excellent comments here on prior threads .. you guys/gals are great
]
June 14, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Nice post, Nudge. I like the flowers banner much better than the previous bikes banner, Nature trumps humans once again!
June 14, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Excellent point about “what works.” It seems like a lot of idealists (on any side of any argument) forget that part.
MOU, quickie response to one of your comments in the last post: getting a kitten is a fine prep move. Not only will he catch vermin, a lot of people focus on “prep” and ignore morale. Anyone’s stash should include a few decks of cards and some board games. And a cat.
June 14, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Dmitry Orlov sez pets were popular during the Soviet collaspe, and breeding pets was a small scale biz. Not that I reccommend such as business, there are plenty of animals that need a home at the shelters.
-AU, currently incarnated as Cthulhu at the other place.
June 14, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Oh, I forgot to mention… I gave TFM a makeover this weekend. Next FAR Future goes up at 7am tomorrow, as usual.
June 14, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Fuck you Nudge,
I’ve looked into the future via my cattail-powered navel time-vortex machine and everything is AOK! I’ve got the OS and power-point presentation to prove it!
June 15, 2009 at 12:57 am
Ah ha! So, AU = Cthulhu! I was leaning towards Uncle Remus!
I see Gulland is posting again on CFN—the resident blacksmith
June 15, 2009 at 12:59 am
Looking forward to viewing your power-point, Uncle Yarra!
June 15, 2009 at 2:06 am
yeah, yeah, As soon as I can get the fungus out of my cattail crop….
June 15, 2009 at 2:11 am
“hey, have you seen that video of the Chk-Chk-Boom girl in Australia? Let’s stop racist bogans like her from mouthing off like that. EVERYONE download the video from YouTube and post a response, it’s YOUR chance to do some good.”
—-~—-
“awarenesses of (and obsessions about) trivial faraway events of all types;
the notion that folks in village A can in any way affect events in distant village B;
a sense that there exist the unlimited means to implement things systematically;
a sense that everything everywhere matters somehow, that each of us is important or unique; “
June 15, 2009 at 5:15 am
G’morning all and thanks for the nice comments. Doom, the backdrop is native Minnesota prairie flower. I was originally looking for the same from the Detroit area but did not find it.
Far, do you remember the notes from the bottom of that list of 100 things to disappear first, for which MOU posted the link on CFN a long time back? The notes said something not unlike what you mentioned about the cat: that it’s important to have some low-tech diversions like good books or something saved for a special occasion. Stuff like that is to help you get through the “long” part of TLE.
AU, sheesh, I was beginning to think Cthulu was UR too. Very nice stuff
UY, I’m old enough to remember the pre-internet days, when to find the interesting numbers and statistics type information, one had to visit ever-larger university libraries and work with the reference librarians. Back in those days I don’t recall anyone outside of stock traders, working in the pit, to be as news-obsessed as people have become these days through the power of the internet ~ which must surely be considered a mixed bag of blessings. There are plenty of people out there who aren’t neighbors or friends or classmates or relatives of, say, that tart Lindsay Lohan, yet they follow the news of what she was caught doing (and what color underwear it is today) as if it’s some kind of gospel they can’t live without. There are plenty of people following the Brazilian and French efforts to locate the black boxes from that Air France chart, even though they don’t work in the marine salvage field or trade stocks thereof, aren’t related to (or friends of) any of the victims or rescuers, are not from either of the countries the flight was to/from, and don’t know Airbus except as a distant European product name they hear occasionally.
Did I diss enough people in this post? Was going to put up live links to RAND, but a) I know people who’ve worked there, and b) they have too many friends at those 3-letter agencies I’d rather not hear about.
The cattail guy was funny about his notions of sustainability. Has he actually tried living like his? (and is it really all powered by Debian?)
http://www.cybershamanix.com/
June 15, 2009 at 4:56 pm
I like Cattail Guy! I hope he continues to post his stuff—
For perhaps a limited time, JHK will answer your posted questions for him on CFN if it is relevant to today’s post. That’s a first, I think.
He answered part of mine, but got me mixed with David Mathews–his name, my questions [insert sad face here].
June 15, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Doom, are you implying that everyone’s favorite excessively-repetitive ** upstate NY curmudgeon has finally grasped the interactive nature of the internet in general and blogs in particular? So he’s not just acting purely in the “ugg, me say, you read” mode? Err, that’s one big step for a particular man, and not a very much-noticed step for all of mankind. Mr Gorbachev, come down off that wall.
Cattail Guy is actually quite funny in his own sort of Patrick-like way.
** suburbia sucks, NASCAR sucks, tattoos are for morons, peak oil is gonna get us all, we all need to stop driving and ride the train, etc (with apologies to the one who penned that phrase)
June 15, 2009 at 7:22 pm
JHK has hired consultants who are telling him to redo his blog and start Kunstler Klubs (Jeeezus). Notice how ads pop up in the comments sections for his pod casts and things now (Excuse me, I feel something coming up my throat). My guess is that they told him to answer some of the unwashed tattoo freak’s questions.
Doom? Are you unwashed, tattooed, or both? Or maybe Dave Mathews is…
June 15, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Cthulu proclaims that on the interwebs, no-one really knows if you are a dog. Conversely, no-one knows if you really are JHK, either. I think the Turing test for JHK involves being banned; if you ask to be banned, and then you are banned, then JHK does read and reply. Wasn’t there a faux JHK a while back on CFN?
I want an update fron Brandon, if he has any synapses that still fire.
June 15, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Upon seeing the “James Howard Kunstler” comments, my first thought was that the faker is back… but the style is way different. If it’s actually him, it’s almost like he’s got a stenographer entering the responses for him.
In a way, the thought is more off-putting than not even reading his comments in the first place… congresscritters have a staff to read (and in some cases, answer) letters they get from constituents, so they can continue to suck off lobbyists for cash. What’s JHK’s excuse? Cripe, the more I think about it the more it strikes me as some kind of wannabee elitism. Yeesh. The only upside I see is that his presence, even by proxy, might prompt people to stay more or less on-topic.
I thought AU pretty much let slip his Cthulu mask on the first post as such?
June 15, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“I thought AU pretty much let slip his Cthulu mask on the first post as such?”
Far reads with attention. yes. No attempt at subterfuge. HP Lovecraft was being invoked. Warnings were given, as one never knows what terror might be summoned.
I have been too lazy to register again as Autonomous Unit at the new blog.
I have been too lazy to register at all at LATOC.
Perhaps the way to get JHK to respond is to mis-interpert his writing. Nothing pisses writers off more than being mis-understood, as this implies a failure on their part to write clearly.
June 15, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Far, good call on the way the “JHK” responses sound ghostwritten. I’m wondering if it’s the same person whose voice is on the intros to the KunstlerKast stuff ~ you know, that nerdy-sounding young guy. Err, or Jim has a 20-something son he’s never mentioned publicly?
Huh. There’s no reason why Cthulu ** must have the same set of human hands doing His bidding on the keyboards every day, if you know what I mean. It could be dang fun to ghostwrite those posts.
** without taking anything away from the One True Cthulu, of course
Laws, it’s like amateur night over there. I much prefer Greenbean’s example: he’s either doing something more productive or more fun right now than posting on CFN.
The Kunstler Klubs stuff is downright weird. Special decoder ring to the first one to start up a club in YOUR village! That’s like Jim going all Friedman on us.
(note to self: stay high on the lowerarchy of life)
June 15, 2009 at 8:34 pm
AU wrote: “Nothing pisses writers off more than being mis-understood, as this implies a failure on their part to write clearly.”
Hmm. I always thought of misunderstanding as the cardinal occupational hazard of saying anything at all to anyone. Isn’t the most-often and most-frantically scanned-for phrase in all those Berlitz “conversational [whatever]” books something to the effect of, “But wait .. you don’t understand!!” ? You can write stuff to yourself, at least in the short time frame, and probably have it understood quite well by the reader. It breaks down of course when other people read it or when too much time has passed since you wrote it.
Then again, you can go all Far Side-y and write stuff that barely has a chance of being understood. For instance, I still haven’t a clue as to understand poor JR .. and this understanding thing is rather hobbled by the way he won’t meet in person. OTOH, I feel no need to meet Jimbo in person. He hasn’t got “solutions” either, and I think I know his schtick to within maybe 4 decimal places or better.
June 15, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Jimbo’s gonna make me go all Cthulu if he mentions that so-called urban planning thing much more. No, on second though, I’ll just go find something else to read. No great loss.
Here’s something Jimbo probably doesn’t get: all of those beautiful walkable communities of the past were NOT painstakingly designed by expensive architects and PO theorists who’d memorized “A Pattern Language”. No, they were designed and built piecemeal by the people who lived in them. It’s that simple.
In like fashion, Jimbo will be less than just irrelevant when people are making makeshift dwellings as best as they can and scrounging for something to burn doing those cold upstate NY winters: he’ll be hungry if he doesn’t get a good garden in that year. I doubt very much anyone in Saratoga or Round Lake or Ballston Spa or Burnt Hills is going to be interested by then in reading his newsletter about the evils of the vanished suburbia, oil, or SUVs, or hearing his plans about commuter rail transit to Albany.
June 15, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Aw, I wanna believe it was HIM, not some mealy-mouthed impostor like Duncan Crary. Reasons I think it was JHK–he misread my post and confused me with David Mathews (I called him on it in my reply); he only answered the first question or two (I had about four) and he did not respond to my reply or post anymoron replies (it got close to his dinnertime).
I think it’s really him trying to keep interest high in his new blog site, and this is one way to do it, so good on him. I predict he will now disappear for the rest of the week, to do all those other things he does.
Also, note the JHK logic train (no pun intended, but what the hey!) in his reply. If things were as dire as he suggests re: lack of capital, why does the US economic beast keep moving about upon the land, breathing fire and killing “insurgents” in foreign lands? The key is “30 years from now”, yeah, gonna be a whole lot of changes by then, we agree!
June 16, 2009 at 5:11 am
Heck. While we’re on the topic, I’m wondering if Jimbo didn’t indicate a personal preference for jet travel, cold orange juice, fresh coffee, television, computers, etc, in the title of his book “The Long Emergency”. Most of us know by now that it’s not an emergency (an abnormal, temporary state of affairs such as the town being on fire, a world war raging, the volcano 20 miles away erupting, a forest fire, and so on ~ the emphasis is on temporary since all these things burn themselves out eventually) so much as it’s a correction or a reversion-to-norm taking place over whole decades.
Most of us know too that the ride down will not be like the ride up and may in fact not resemble it very much.
Thinking about it as an emergency probably isn’t very helpful given the long span of time over which these events will be taking place.
I vote instead for the “think of this as an opportunity to re-do things for the better” approach as allowed by time and resources and circumstance. For example, I live just slingshot distance away from a wonderfully-irrigated and seasonally-flooded flat piece of land (the local creek’s floodplain) that no one builds on for fear of regular inundation. No doubt the soil is fantastically fertile. Unfortunately it’s been designated as a park of sorts, so there’s no opportunity to use the space for growing food. The local wildlife is quite active here too, so fencing the stuff would be problematic.
June 16, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Right now I’d describe the ride down as a free-fall of hopes and expectations called a PC “challenge”. It’s obviously a work in progress, plus summer is supposed to be a semi-official “time out” period, so folks want to look away, but it’s hard to do so, thanks to the internet, MSM and local papers. I think those that think about it, like MOU/babystepper, are rightfully scared. Like Jimbo sez, we are collectively heading into new territory.
On the land, Nudge, ask yourself: “what would/did the former native americans do with it?” Except maybe for the Iroquois “bark eater” types, they knew what they were doing in those parts.
June 16, 2009 at 12:21 pm
#16@AU: Perhaps the way to get JHK to respond is to mis-interpert his writing. Nothing pisses writers off more than being mis-understood, as this implies a failure on their part to write clearly.
Very true with a minor amendment. Mediocre writers just get pissed off. Good writers get pissed off then try to do better next time. Great writers get pissed off at themselves and immediately fix the ambiguous passage(s).
Just my two cents.
June 16, 2009 at 12:32 pm
#19@Nudge: Here’s something Jimbo probably doesn’t get: all of those beautiful walkable communities of the past were NOT painstakingly designed by expensive architects and PO theorists who’d memorized “A Pattern Language”. No, they were designed and built piecemeal by the people who lived in them. It’s that simple.
This kind of thing is why I keep coming back here… JHK and most of his readers just don’t get that. That’s why I’ve been saying suburbia will rebuild itself into a ratty version of those quaint villages they were patterned after in the first place. Those decrepit towns that JHK talked about are still there, often only in name, but many have the old general store (or equivalent) still standing & waiting to be re-occupied.
That said, a *little* planning is a good idea. You don’t need the artsy-fart architects getting involved — maybe a civil engineer and someone who understands commerce and what people are going to want/need day-to-day — put the infrastructure in place first & let it go. The NUrbs need to feel needed, so I doubt that JHK will ever get off that particular perch.
June 16, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Doc, I don’t know what there is to be afraid of. Either you have your contingency plans in place, or you don’t (in which case you need to stop wasting time being afraid & get to work
). MOU seems to have her plans pretty well lined up, so there’s really not much for her to worry about… unless she’s missed something essential & it doesn’t sound like she has.
The problem is, what plans will work for her may not work for me, nor would mine work for you. And “thinking of everything” is pretty much impossible… it’s more important to be able to adapt to the situation on the ground as it were. What’s the saying in the military? “No plan survives first contact with the enemy.”
For all his bluster about Dow 4000 and other non-events, JHK doesn’t seem to be doing much beyond continuing his jet-setting ways.
June 16, 2009 at 2:50 pm
“Very true with a minor amendment. Mediocre writers just get pissed off. Good writers get pissed off then try to do better next time. Great writers get pissed off at themselves and immediately fix the ambiguous passage(s).”
JHK must be great, then, as he even went back and wrote an addendum to this week’s post to try and correct the problem!
June 16, 2009 at 3:04 pm
FAR, there is iron in your words, kimosabe, but some of us just like being scared, I guess. Like Dmitry Orlov has related, some of us, and I know I fit the demographic, will mourn the loss of what we once had, techno-hedgemony? I was never rich, but am also not looking forward to becoming materially poorer.
For years now, I have often asked myself what is the point in teaching advanced concepts in physical sciences to a future bunch of circumstance-driven under-achievers? In my chosen field, at some point research-educational sea cruises will be cancelled because of fuel and ship maintenance problems.
We narrowly adverted having an entire submersible diving program shelved last year because the mother ship broke a propulsion shaft. The fix was a replacement shaft from marine salvage, but still the costs of installation were steep, and our dean was debating whether the school and university could afford it. Edge effects of The Long Emergency, whatever that title means. (Maybe we can get JHK to post a defense of the meaning of his book’s title? Ho ho.)
June 16, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Congrats on the blog site Nudge.
XER
June 16, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Hey Doc, thanks for pointing out the addendum… in which JHK blames his readers of “a very dumb mis-reading.” LOL, I just open the page & hit the “End” key to get to the bottom of the comments, then scroll up to the last one I’d read before, so I missed that one. Sure, anyone who’s been around for a while would know he didn’t mean it that way, but it looks like he just got defensive & pissy rather than being more clear. Maybe he’ll go for “good” & do better next time.
Fear’s a good motivator to get started for disaster preparation, but once you’ve reached a certain point it only gets in the way (and causes a fair amount of adverse physiological stuff too). Triage your stuff — that doesn’t rise to the value of human lives, so you can get *really* dispassionate about it. “There’s no way we’ll be able to continue this particular research program as-is? OK… can we retrofit the mothership with sail, or do it a different way altogether?” I think you guys got a good start on being innovative, using a salvaged shaft to get your mothership going again — next time, y’all might go the salvage route first & save a bunch of $$$ even if you had the budget for a new part. Or your mechanical engineering college might step up and machine you a replacement part.
Sure, there’s lots of crap we’ll miss on the way down. But there’s lots of crap we won’t miss as well. The final FAR Future sub-series, which starts episode after next, touches on that. A lot has already changed in “the next” not-quite 30 years, and some of the changes were abrupt, but they didn’t *all* happen *all* together overnight.
June 16, 2009 at 6:30 pm
XER,
Wow! Great to have you back, at least we hope so
Check out this zwick’s recent CFN post:
zwick | JUNE 16, 2009 4:04 PM | REPLY
“Leave JHK alone, he’s making a living. As for the folks who talk-talk about solar and buses and trains and wave power and nuclear and recycling this and that, I got some bad news for you. It’s over. That’s right-over. Instead of saving the planet or saving the nation, save yourselves. The bad things aren’t coming, they are here. It’s too late for any of the wonderful things you intelligent, well-informed people are talking about. There’s no money and no will left in this country. Just concentrate on saving yourselves. Don’t be distracted by all the happy talk from MSM, that will kill you as sure as your hungry neighbor will. Forget about hope, THAT has always been a #1 killer of thoughtful people. Prepare for the worst before the rest of the shumucks figure it out. Don’t be a victim of your ideals.”
One of the greatest, most succinct doomer-POV posts I’ve ever read! It’s XER quality stuff. Maybe we should nominate him/her for an award. (BTW, XER, I used your now axiom-al quote on “the fat fuck in the purple velvet jump suit….” last week on CFN. AU chastised me for not putting it in bold or italic type deserving of such classic material. Apologies–I am HTML challenged.)
June 16, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Wow, great comments. Y’all make me sorry the day job keeps me busy all day. No, on second thought, that job is paying the bills to let me do this while not at work.
Hi XER and thanks for visiting. Hope everything has been well for you. But how did you find this? I don’t exactly advertise. Net popularity is overrated. There are few links leading to FTA.
Doom, your 1201 post touched on something that’s been much on my mind lately. I’m fairly certain now that the era I’d been wistfully referring to as “sustainable levels of technology” (1880s~1900s) was in fact already well into the fossil fuel era, albeit by coal and by certain refined oil products. For sure, all of the people alive back then, plus all of their industrial activity, plus all of the necessary heating of structures, plus all of the moving machinery (like railroads), etc, was not at all sustainable purely on wood power. The amazing old-growth deciduous forests of the east were yet another resource we strip-mined to death as quickly as possible.
In the non-fossil-fuel world, wood is all you’ve got for heat. To make iron or steel, you need quite a lot of charcoal relative to the mass of the metal .. and to make charcoal, you need quite a lot of wood relative to the volume of charcoal. All of the metal we use and have around us now is a measure of how extravagant our culture is in its use of energy for the most casual of purposes. (ha, and how many person-years of development and refinement went into hardware and software so that I can use this sleek laptop to post stuff like this?)
AFAIK the only way I know for humans to be in stasis relative to their firewood supply (and to keep that supply healthy) is to live pretty darn low-tech, not unlike the native Americans you mentioned in your post. Not sure if there’s the possibility for people to live at technology levels above that and still refrain, as societies, from stupidly depleting the existing resources. As Jared Diamond points out so well in “Collapse”, humanity has a disgustingly poor track record at this sort of thing, with few exceptions.
In the parent post, I mentioned some key things that the Friedman fan had pre-supposed .. and one of them (probably the key one) was all about getting absolutely EVERYONE on board with the program. That is, we would all need to strongly dissuade ourselves, and anyone/everyone else, from cutting down any trees at all unless totally and absolutely necessary. The whole concept of resource stewardship would have to be a very important part of the culture ~ like the way the good people of Papua New Guinea do it.
June 16, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Far, thanks for the excellent 1232 post. I doubt many people in the present era understand the limitations of the top-down design method as applied to (if this is the right term) non-deterministic systems. Things like the physical layout of a community .. or the evolution of a language .. or the paths by which primitive peoples settled new territories .. or even the flow of foot traffic – all flow in peculiar little ways because of the individual choices of all of the people acting within the system as it evolves. No, it’s not perfectly logical or consistent, and the people involved didn’t attend Urban Planning College or the School of Intelligent Language Design.
Something like Disneyworld is a genuine planned environment (and is a key part of Disney’s vast sheeple-shearing operation) but the town you live in probably is not. In the old days, they would never have had the hubris (or the means, pre-computer-era) to draw up elaborate HOA’s so that the tenants stick to only certain color schemes for facades and front doors and shrubberies.
Agreed on a little planning being a good idea. What’s re-usable will be used, somehow, and by making sensible choices along the way, various kinds of organic arrangements will be worked out in time. There should be little doubt that walkability will be a whole new (or old) thing again once motor vehicles are not so widely used. (speaking of which, gasoline prices are poised to make a recovery .. green shoots!) Useful stuff ~ be it a well-planned downtown or a well-irrigated patch of farmland ~ will not go unused.
Agreed on how Jimbo doesn’t seem too eager to part ways with the present arrangement.
June 16, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Far wrote: “Fear’s a good motivator to get started for disaster preparation, but once you’ve reached a certain point it only gets in the way (and causes a fair amount of adverse physiological stuff too)”
BINGO.
Does the Coast Guard or someone else maintain a genuine sailing ship that could be used for any of the marine research work? Love that thought of having the ME/shop people work on a fix. There are a lot of people out there who really enjoy doing useful stuff but have simply never gotten the opportunity to go hands-on and have never been presented with the means and motive.
OK, I’ve got to go read JHK’s addendum.
June 16, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Nudge, Dr. Doom, All,
I found the site on Doom’s profile while looking at a Dmitry Orlov post.
I ve just completed a year nomading around the Pacific North West. Very interesting. I met many very “awake” people there. ( I am currently in NORCAL and will be here for the summer.)
XER
June 16, 2009 at 8:06 pm
“Instead of saving the planet or saving the nation, save yourselves.”
One small problem with saving just our worthless selves. A ruined planet won’t be much fun to live on.
June 16, 2009 at 8:08 pm
XER, please keep us posted, as we value your insightful commentary and would love to hear more about your PNW travels. You have been missed sorely.
AU recently posted this link to Dr. Colin Campbell’s “farewell” or retirement announcement on ZK–interview is here: http://www.lifeinfo.de/inh1./texte/colin_j._campbell_intervie.html
Great interview of a great man.
June 16, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Hi XER! Hope you are doing well.
June 16, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Hey all! GB, excellent point. Kind of hard to make a life on a wrecked planet.
XER, good to see you back. I hope you can share some of the highlights of your travels.
I’m left speechless… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8103557.stm
June 16, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Same to you St Biff.
“To advise is not to compel.”
Anton Chekhov
June 16, 2009 at 11:41 pm
My personal history and the age of oil: My grandmother was born in 1880, my father in 1910, me in 1950, my daughters in 1973, 1980 and 1993. I have two grandchildren.
My grandmother was a child when oil came into wide use; she was a young woman when the automobile became a reality and the Wright Bros. ushered in flying. My father came of age along with the automobile. He lived to see jet travel become commonplace. He was middle-aged when TV became the principal form of entertainment.
In my time I’ve seen the deployment of the personal computer, cell phones and the Internet. My 15 year old daughter thinks the dark ages were roughly 5 years ago. She can’t imagine how when we were her age we didn’t have cell phones or Facebook. My grandchildren will have too little to mention of all of that.
I hear people say things sometimes like: “Of course it will bounce back; it always has! But what “always” are they talking about? I knew my grandmother well; I spent a lot of time with her when I was a teenager. I know my grandkids. So I know/have known people who span the whole of the modern age of oil. It’s not a very long time at all. In terms of our life as a species it is a blip within a blip.
The dinosaurs (who we think were stupid) lasted 180 million years—and were in charge for most of their time. How long will we last?
June 16, 2009 at 11:45 pm
DD,
Colin Csmpbell is a credit to all of us.
“That’s right-over. Instead of saving the planet or saving the nation, save yourselves. The bad things aren’t coming, they are here. It’s too late for any of the wonderful things you intelligent, well-informed people are talking about. There’s no money and no will left in this country.”
No money and no will. A nation whithering in the hot and dry fields. GM, a dead carcass decaying in the bright sun. Much has and will die with GM. The GM death is like taking a few wrecking ball swings to the American colective mind.
June 16, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Nice.
“The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.” – Fyodor Dostoevsky
heh heh
June 17, 2009 at 12:12 am
I think it’s laudable what the people in the relocalization movement do, their proselytizing, their teaching, their advocacy. And it might do some people some good. To say just take care of yourself is accepting that you will be in the final stage of Dimtri Orlov’s Five Stages of Collapse.
The truth of “just taking care of yourself” lies within the fact that we are at the bottom of the rung of power in society and as such have to see how it plays out for us to decide how to respond. So far the federal government levels (not just in the US but everywhere) have given us nothing to be confident that they can show the way when TSHTF.
But who knows, maybe some real leaders will emerge within some of the levels of government. I tend to think the most positive will be the municipal level. They are the ones that see how people live.
Even now some places are taking small positive steps. In Vancouver B.C. the city council passed an ordinance permitting raising chickens in backyards. A lot of smug media types laughed at them but it seems popular with the people.
We came very close last summer to a jolt of a kind when independent truckers threatened to stop hauling goods because they were losing money with gas prices so high. Imagine your local grocery store with only a few days’ supply of food in it.
We don’t know yet what level of government, if any, will be dependable for us. Neighborhoods could pull together or not. One thing is certain anyone just out there on their own is not going to last too long.
Look around at some of the facts on the ground and wonder how they will play into the permutations and combinations of what will transpire.
How many people have recently (since 1990 say) been soldiers? Several million anyway. What about the National Guard? Can you imagine in some circumstances they will become independent forces operating for local warlords.
Most of the military have now had experience in urban warfare. Will they stay loyal to the central government?
Virtually every American is armed, much less so in Canada. Criminal gangs are ubiquitous; what role will they chose in a collapse?
Those are just a few thoughts. I can’t imagine it’s going to go smoothly. I think one way or another a lot of people are going to die. And I don’t even think the survivors will really end up in Jim’s town of World Made by Hand. But I have children and grandchildren so have to have some hope.
June 17, 2009 at 12:55 am
Patz,I hope you have forgiven me over that Inuit–”Caucasian Pie” exchange over on CFN. I really try hard not to be a racist, but I was raised by them (both southerners, BTW), so there is a lot of baggage to suppress.
Appreciate your comments here–we are the same age. My father was born in 1907, mother in 1915 who is still alive. I never knew any grandparents as they all died in middle-age of consumption and influenza.
June 17, 2009 at 5:10 am
XER, I too would love to hear about what you saw when traveling the PNW ~ especially the people you met. Ditto with what Doom said about you being missed
Far, you’re lucky I wasn’t drinking coffee when that BBC link came up! From the article: “Some scientists also believe that the technical hurdles to fusion have become more difficult to overcome and that the development of fusion as a commercial power source is still at least 100 years away.”
Gosh, who would have thunked it? I mean, if it was still 20 years away before I was born, and it’s still that or even longer now, guess what: it’s not “becoming more difficult”, it’s simply a chimera, like that fake rabbit that runs around the track at the dog racing park. Notice how the dogs chase it but never catch it? Feh. No doubt, everyone involved will keep saying that they just need more money and time. “We can solve the problem if we just throw enough resources at it!” (approximately what McNamara kept saying about the war in VietNam)
Patz: agree with what you said about how people will be lucky to end up in an environment as benign as the one forming the backdrop of WMBH, and how a lot of people are going to die. (heck, I’ll probably be one of them, but worrying about it now is beyond useless)
June 17, 2009 at 10:42 am
Nice. Reflections on a Society Slowly Suffocating from Stresses of Shortsighted Success Sans Sustainability.
Oh Reckoning of the Reluctant-to-Reality,
Who will Reflect at Repast?
Only the Ready. Only the Ready.
June 17, 2009 at 12:16 pm
As some of you may know, “disingenuous” is one of my favorite words. It’s a polite form of “liar” or “dishonest”, and it allows for some perhaps confused or programmed behavior on the part of the perpatrater.
Right now I’m thinking President Obama has been doing a whole lot of disengenuous things regarding our national banking system. I think in 1933, FDR did also, but they may have been better understood “little white lies”, designed not to cause a panic. FDR was a master at manipulation.
This: http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/16/news/economy/regulatory_reform/index.htm?postversion=2009061619
versus:
“[Dr Doom] writes: You mention that in the future, high rises in our cities over 20 stories will not be repaired or updated, presumably because of lack of capital. Do you mean a future starting about now, and if those types of buildings cannot be affordably repaired, what about costly highway bridges, and other necessary infrastructure (e.g, city sewers, water supply/treatment works, electrical grids)? It seems to me you are implying a whole lot less service than just loss of the interstate highways due to the loss of “level of service”.
Jim replies: Yes I mean “about now.” About now is when we are bankrupt, when credit is vanishing, when no one can get loans to do construction, when commercial real estate is hemorrhaging value (and “underwater” on its financing). Lookit, there have been scores of new condo towers built in NYC and Chicago alone the past 10 years. Very few of them have entered the rehab zone (a few have, actually). How about when they DO require renovation and we are 30 years past peak oil? Maybe by then we’ll be running on “dark matter” (but I wouldn’t count on it). There are also the self-evident problems with electricity, elevators, heating and cooling, replacement of high-tech cladding materials, etc. The truth is, most of these buildings were one-shot deals. They will not be fixed when their time comes. –JHK”
“The GM death is like taking a few wrecking ball swings to the American collective mind.”–XER
June 17, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Those reforms mentioned by Oh!bama are more of the “let’s close the barn door a month after the horses have all escaped” type stuff. In the meantime, while geniuses like that were pondering what to do next, the whole rest of the farm burned down. End of story. It’s all over but the credits.
June 18, 2009 at 12:09 am
Dr. D. thanks for asking but no forgiveness required. And I didn’t really think you were racist as much as stubborn
The problem of being our age is facing what’s coming with so much less energy and whatever else youth gives us…(make that gave us).
I read a lot of blogs economic, political etc. and what I notice is how much proximate causes are confused with root causes. In fact, except for here and a bit on CFN I don’t see anything regarding root causes.
We are approaching the inevitable denouement that was set in motion when we first picked up a tool. It is in our genes to improve our lot, to get more: food, shelter, toys… and on.
We started slowly but inexorably to grow and even had we not been given the “gift of oil” we would have eventually reached the outer limits of the planet’s capability to sustain us.
No political/economic system would have created a sustainable system to use the resources. But capitalism evolved as the system to use everything up as fast as possible (remember “planned obsolescence”). Real socialism might have been more equitable and we might have gone on a tad longer but not much.
So economists go on endlessly about excessive debt and deleveraging and bailouts as a percentage of GDP without ever realizing that our present economic status is a function of growth itself. I was about to say “excessive growth” but that would be redundant.
One could get really angry about our situation but why? It’s nobody’s fault as such; it’s just our trajectory on this planet just as the dinosaurs’ had theirs.
But the way don’t romanticize the native peoples of North America (or anywhere else for that matter). They were on the same general path we were on: growing, building cities and all that when Europeans came along and decimated them.
June 18, 2009 at 12:30 am
Patz, et al, I have a colleague here, a retired director, that is all hot for synclotron (?) contained fusion. I sent him an email telling him basically “why bother”? If they are successful, humans will just use the new energy to deplete the next critical resource that much faster, say phosphate fertilizer, or keep adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere for a nice climate shift down the road. Maybe I was too pessimistic, but it seems we can always count on humans to try all the wrong solutions first.
Almost time to roll the credits….http://cluborlov.wordpress.com
June 18, 2009 at 12:55 am
A hundred or so Romanian immigrant workers and their families had to take refuge in a Belfast church from racist attacks today. Hmmmm wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that Ireland is in a state of collapse would it? Harbinger anyone?
June 18, 2009 at 12:56 am
Oops, wrong address! Try this: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com
A highly recommended read.
June 18, 2009 at 1:12 am
Doom, did you catch Orlov’s latest? He posted his Dublin presentation – with PPT slides.
June 18, 2009 at 1:19 am
A good question. Previews help a lot also!
June 18, 2009 at 5:27 am
Nice comments. Patz & Doom, I haven’t yet found anything in the controls to allow editing of posts by folks who haven’t logged in as the administrator .. but I can edit stuff if people want.
Patz, thank you for clarifying the fact that the native Americans were spreading, albeit more slowly than the European types did. Except for a few notable examples, our species seems not to live in balance with nature so much as it grows in population until checked by other forces.
Doom, that fusion stuff is going to keep me laughing for days. So now it’s a century away, the problem has gotten harder, and it needs /more/ money? Bwahahahahaha. Nice to know that some really smart people out there can be so totally dumb. Just like in a modern skyscraper, the windows in the ivory tower are sealed shut and not meant to open.
Donovan, sorry I didn’t visit the admin panel for a couple days. Your stuff should go through now as long as you enter the same user data every time. It trips on new stuff .. sort of an automatic newbie filter.
I admire Dmitri and all that, but still, telling people to “definancialize” and “deglobalize” is already (or is going to be) about as redundant as telling people to fornicate, drink alcohol, and get some sleep eventually. Our leaders do not have the ability to lead us back down without losing the fiat of authority .. and the way down will be different everywhere for different people in different places. There is no universal “path downward” that will suit all places and all people, unless it’s as simple as “we’ll be using less motor fuel each year than the year before” or stuff like that. (again, no one will need to be /told/ to do it .. it will happen on its own anyway)
Oh well, whatever puts food on Dmitri’s table and lets him jet to conferences.
Someone on LayoffDaily.com posted a comment the other day about how folks in rural Ohio, out of work for awhile now, are bartering farm goods for necessities. Unfortunately there were no references given. I posted something asking for more.
Patz, most upright monkeys are not comfy discussing root causes since they lie perilously close to delusions about what constitutes “progress” and what a person should expect from life.
June 18, 2009 at 10:04 am
The news stories today are about the ongoing hollowing out of our cities and economy. Not especially exciting stuff:
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/107206/retailers-head-for-exits-in-detroit.html?mod=family-autos
Its more uplifting to focus on whats growing outside in the woods, fields, gardens. Raining today. Good for the fungi, though.
June 18, 2009 at 10:32 am
“I admire Dmitri and all that, but still, telling people to “definancialize” and “deglobalize” is already (or is going to be) about as redundant as telling people to fornicate, drink alcohol, and get some sleep eventually.”
Dunno Nudge, “definancialize” and “deglobalize” are pretty heady concepts for AWOL droids and Congresstards alike.
Orlov reminded me off a sign I had on the wall in an old office – “There is no box” – a kind of mash-up of “think outside the box” and Neo’s spoon bending scene in the first Matrix – there is no spoon.
The grand illusion cum reality filter projected around us, sourced in our own minds and media reinforced, requires unrelenting attack.
June 18, 2009 at 10:36 am
“Its more uplifting to focus on whats growing outside in the woods, fields, gardens.”
Amen.
June 18, 2009 at 12:20 pm
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-tracking-the-second-great-depression-2009-6
See? No need to tell people to “consume less” or “definancialize” .. is already underway. Of course, I have precious little sympathy for anyone who’s got a net connection but does not avail him- or herself of it to figure out what’s happening.
June 18, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Yo Donovan, good to see you posting here! Here’s a line I like: “The grand illusion cum reality filter projected around us, sourced in our own minds and media reinforced, requires unrelenting attack.”
Didn’t see your 1:12 am post as I was having computer posting problems myself—ya, I meant if you hit the cluborlov link one would see his latest talk posted there—Nudge, please read the whole thing.
Loved the part where I can kiss my retirement funds goodbye and had better buy some farm land instead. Not bad thinking.
June 18, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Well, yo back Herr Doktor. Haven’t bothered setting up any sockpuppets (that aren’t retired) on CFN. Probably won’t. And I have no tales of brave Ulysses for ZK. FTA is about the crux of the biscuit. And my posting time is limited these days.
On your retirement funds – I get the impression the underlying theme is starve the beast by cutting of it’s food supply – your (our, my) money.
I find predictable, albeit a bit unnerving, the nervous twitch and frenzied desparate behavior of revenue starved local governments, pawing through the metaphorical sofa cushions and vending machine coin return slots looking for chump change, knowing the unattended purse or billfold is inevitably next as is most likely some B&E.
I need to scare up some video editing software. I want to do a redubbed viddy of The One with Commodus’ audio from Gladiator -”Am I not merciful?”
June 18, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Doom, I tried reading Dmitri’s post, I really did, but to me it kind of came across as something from Richard Heinberg. This would have been good advice in the past. Maybe a few people can still find buyers for their mutual funds, their Hardly-Ablesons, their matching his/her GM Tawhores, their customized ski boats, etc, and pick up a remote farm that someone’s selling because they’d rather live in the city instead .. but my money would be on the current owners of nice remote property being all too aware of its utility just now. Even my oldest relatives (who are totally disconnected from the net) are picking up on this sort of thing.
I’ve heard from the west coast rels that even the two whack-job bible-thumping abortion-clinic-bombing Christian-jihadist parents (yup) have canceled their usual road trip summer vacation and have planned to stay home and grow a bigass garden. And they’re well into their 70s too. They haven’t done that in a very long time. Normally they travel about in a gas-guzzling land yacht making a nuisance of themselves by impinging on everyone’s hospitality. They have no shame.
Donovan said something earlier that made me want to enunciate something from before. See his comment about the increasingly frenzied and desperate efforts of local governments everywhere to pay through their jurisdictions looking for spare change. The way we’re doing things here in Mazzland is no exception. For the time being, government expenditures are basically cruising along at pre-TLE levels. Emergency reserves and rainy-day funds of all kinds are being depleted madly just to maintain expectations. The people involved are for the time being totally insulated from objective reality. It would be accurate to say that those same people have not yet recognized this as an outside context problem: they’re still treating it as “a rough spot in the economy” or “a temporary downturn” instead of a ferociously clear hint to cut back radically on expenditures.
And that, my friends, is our dilemma. See the part at the beginning of the parent post where I gave that Friedman fan a list of preconditions that are as yet unmet? Key among them is “that people will universally agree that such-and-such is a good idea and that everyone should do it”.
You and I know what’s coming next. It seems safe to say that everyone here does. Dmitri surely does. Jimbo probably does. And so on. Those people in charge would not listen to us if we all showed up and gave impassioned presentations .. heck, the TOD people would boggle them with the charts alone.
The grand illusion cum reality filter (thanks Donovan!) is still working too well for too many people. Until we get a universal recognition of this mess for what it is, things will continue to get much worse. We could loosely define the bottom as “what the PTB can realistically accomplish, given what limited means they may still possess, after universal recognition of GD2 has become a fact”.
The probable reality is that if things get so bad that even the most-insulated high-and-mighties finally become aware of the scope of the problems facing us as a society, things will be far too gone to fix. As a corollary, things will be unequally bad in different places, but you know that already.
Thanks again to everyone for the excellent comments. I’m very pleased to say that our posters:lurkers ratio here is quite high. Most blogs go the other way.
June 18, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Here’s a possible relevant exchange this D3PO character had today on TOD, NAS petition thread:
“ThisOne on June 18, 2009 – 9:05am
My personal conclusion is that the fewer people who position themselves to survive the impending population crash, the better off is planet earth and those few people. Attempts to save everyone just fly in the face of the laws of nature.
I believe the opposite is true. The more people that prepare the better. If enough people prepare we could potentially move through the bottleneck to a life that is even more rewarding than we have now(I’m not holding my breathe though).
If only a few prepare, those who don’t aren’t simply going to lay down and die. They will raze the earth for every last calorie they can burn or consume. What do you think about that?
Reply | Reply in new window | Start new thread | Flag as inappropriate
D3PO on June 18, 2009 – 1:51pm
Gee, I wonder how many times the Titanic analogy card has been played on TOD?
Adding to that pile, think of the Titanic as an analogy for the world, and Peak Oil as the unfortunately positioned iceberg. Having watched the James Cameron version of the movie many times, thanks mostly to a son who was enthralled by it (informally referred to as The Boat Movie), one begins to wonder how things could have been done a bit differently that could have saved or at least made more comfortable the lives of the many passengers on board. First, they could have filled the early life boats a bit fuller. Second, they could have run around the boat looking for “float-ables” like bed headboards, wood doors, table tops, deck chairs lashed together with rope and perhaps oiled tarps to make crude lifeboats, etc. (Since the water was freezing and they had too few lifeboats and a poor plan to execute the filling of those they had.) Given enough time, which was relatively short for them, the artisans aboard could even had ripped up the wood decking and paneling to make crude “boats”.
The point is, the more that know, the more viable solutions will arise, as one never can tell where the next great idea will come from. It certainly won’t be coming from the fusion physics crowd, ho ho, but you see my point. Far better to give the affected (just about everyone on the ship/planet) an idea of what to expect, a best guess as to when to expect it, and let them stew on it for awhile. Who knows? Some will probably decide to just take up smoking again and get drunk with their old drinking pals. OTOH, things might get organized and improve greatly, like starting to save all those petrodollars slated for new highway construction or airport expansion, fleets of new Dreamliner (aptly named) jets and new F-350 trucks, etc., etc. and open more Made-in-the-USA hand tool factories, start crash Ph.D. programs in Permaculture, how about more, ahem, trains, etc.”
June 19, 2009 at 1:09 am
Nudge says:
“I’ve heard from the west coast rels that even the two whack-job bible-thumping abortion-clinic-bombing Christian-jihadist parents (yup) have canceled their usual road trip summer vacation and have planned to stay home and grow a bigass garden. And they’re well into their 70s too. They haven’t done that in a very long time. Normally they travel about in a gas-guzzling land yacht making a nuisance of themselves by impinging on everyone’s hospitality. They have no shame.”
That had me in tears; it is too funny, tragic and loopy. Ever thought of stand-up as an interim gig Nudge?
Again Nudge says:
“We could loosely define the bottom as “what the PTB can realistically accomplish, given what limited means they may still possess, after universal recognition of GD2 has become a fact.”
My inner jury is out on this one. I think at least a hefty portion of the PTB know damn well what’s coming through the tunnel–a bigass train–not a light. And consequently I wonder what they’ve got up their fashionable sleeves in in their ugly heads re: what to do about/with us!!!
June 19, 2009 at 3:51 am
Patz, oh we’ve heard rumors of their plans. Most are interim solutions involving well-stocked, gated-fenced-walled compounds with security and a big underground tank of petrol for the land yachts. Optional ponds stocked with favorite fish. Optional chopper plus pilot on staff for easy getaways. Multiple locales for the very well healed. John Travolta flies his own planes. Many opt for a nice yacht. Super well off buy their own private island.
I figure they figure we’ll all just have to get along with a whole lot less.
June 19, 2009 at 5:23 am
Hmm, this seems an appropriate time to drag out a Mark Twain quote:
“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on .. or by imbeciles who really mean it”
While there are surely many rich people doing as the good doctor Doom suggested, I would bet on most pols being imbeciles who really do mean it. Take the governor of Mazzland, for instance .. just watch some video of him speaking (or Barney Frank, haha) and you’ll see exactly what I mean. These are the kind of people who couldn’t conspire their way out of a wet paper bag, even when equipped with a map of the way out, sharp scissors, and GPS navigation.
The nooz everywhere these days is the same: emergency funds of all kinds are being burned through at a frantic clip just to maintain last year’s rosy expectations. It’s as if they’re building a bridge over a chasm without being aware of how wide the chasm is. In this case, it’s not months wide, it’s more like decades wide, and is in fact the edge of a plateau far above the land below. It’s not a chasm at all as much as it’s a steep, rocky, slippy-slidey slope back down to reality. And all we’ve done so far is stand at the edge, punching 911 and trying to call the waaaaaahmbulance.
By later this year I’m expecting to hear that “the recovery is taking a little longer than expected, so for the time being we need to prioritize spending on [fill in the blank]”. That BBC article that Far linked the other day was a perfect example. They’ve been throwing money on the bonfire of tame fusion development since well before I was born. I don’t recall them having ever cut back on it before.
Perhaps by 2015 or later, the laggards out there will have caught up with the fact that we’re in a whole new era. By 2025 they may have figured out that running out of oil extraction growth potential was one of the important causes of the crash fifteen years prior. Duh.
It seems well worth pointing out that GD1 went exactly the same. It was not until years later that it was called the great depression. At the time it was happening, it was not widely recognized as such. We’re in the same boat now.
Donovan, all of those descriptives about my parents are unfortunately true. They’re sort of like Catholic Taliban. They both carry handguns, are so far right-wing as to make Pat Buchanan look like Oh!bama’s best butt-buddy, and they proselytize relentlessly, to the vast annoyance of anyone unfortunate enough to come in contact with them. Most of the family shuns them or manages to be elsewhere when they arrive in town. Fortunately, they live on the other side of the continent and we don’t talk. Most of their own children won’t speak with them, if that tells you anything about them.
June 19, 2009 at 5:43 am
My bad, Donovan.
It really doesn’t matter if governor Duval and his cronies are crashing the system deliberately (in order to find some excuse to pull out their golden parachutes and flee before the crowd with torches and pitchforks arrives) or whether they’re crashing it out of stupendous levels of ignorance. They are in the drivers seat regardless while the crash is happening.
Since pols everywhere on (of all political parties) are doing exactly the same, I’m more ready to chalk it up to massive ignorance (and especially to blind faith in the growth/progress meme) than to any kind of deliberate action.
Doom, no doubt there are some justice-minded proles out there who will make it their sport to hunt down the guilty rich who feel safe within their gated (err, caged) communities. Lotsa long pork recipes out there.
Someone on one of the other blogs (maybe CFN’s last week thread?) made a comment about wondering why the Persian Gulf countries are building those expensive offshore artificial-island communities. Duh, it’s because you can’t walk to them. Presumably they put them far enough out that it’s not safe to swim to them either due to tides & currents. Everyone here knows how it’s easier (militarily) to defend a raised hill that lets you see everything around you, so no one can sneak up on your position, right? An island is the same thing: it’s an elevation surrounded by, err, a sea of flatness. Anyone approaching must have a boat of some kind, which makes them easy pickings if you’ve got halfway decent security. (we’re assuming the starved, revenged crazed-locals haven’t got the means to build a decent attack submarine) They’re just using the sea as a moat.
June 19, 2009 at 5:58 am
Maybe its almost time for humanity to take its medicine, a shot of four horsemen followed by a natural selection chaser. Ugh.
June 19, 2009 at 10:42 am
But Nudge, my wife and I both carry. It’s because we are surrounded by crazy delusional people who see green shoots everywhere and expect their homes and portfolios to return to their former bubbly “value”.
The Shi’a and Catholics are a closer comparison. The Taliban and off-the-reservation polygamist Mormons are probably closer. But I understand, living as I do in Redstateistan.
GB – “[...]a shot of four horsemen [with] a [Darwin] chaser” may be all the rage.
Gotta go plug into the Matrix and herd electrons.
June 19, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The main thing about the PNW I found was a high level of enviornmental awareness. I also sensed that many people are well vocationalized, (We have not had well educated people since at least the fifties)
and communicate on a higher level. Plenty of fresh water and good soil structure. Over all, a great place to live, and will do better than most other regions of the US.
Plenty of awareness but weak and seemingly limited will power to make good thoughts into workable forms. All the great thoughts of transition, etc…, are nothing but dead corpses swimming around in human heads. The will to put thought into action is lagging. There are many reasons for this state, and I think most would see them as cultural and enviornmental in nature.
1. The current leadership does not represent people, but conspires to manage people like a herd. Very clever for know. Only works when people have full bellies. Not sustainable.
2. The quality of food. Does not give the proper forces for thought formation.
3. TV, etc…
4. Specialization.
More to come….
Great job here Nudge. You are an the right track regarding the reading of the tea leaves.
June 19, 2009 at 12:48 pm
“GB – “[...]a shot of four horsemen [with] a [Darwin] chaser” may be all the rage.”
Hey, can’t give ALL the credit for natural selection to Darwin, Donovan. But, [Darwin chaser] does have a ring to it.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0/history_14
Hey XER.
June 19, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Nudge, your parents don’t happen to drive a light blue SUV with a sticker on the side that says “Our Lady of Victory, Pray for Us” do they? That was parked next to me when I came out of lunch today. wubba wubba wubba
June 19, 2009 at 2:06 pm
XER,
Your point about the food quality affecting thought quality was also brought up by dave. You might recall dave from CFN. Now he only posts to JR’s ZK blog, when he even posts.
Other three of four points well taken. Points 1 and 3 reinforce each other.
Personally, I don’t see the present “show” making it to 2012. I think it’s certain that we’ll have another oil price-triggered economic slump before then, maybe several, like one per year. At some point, enough folks don’t buy into the recovery ever taking place, then it might as well be over.
June 19, 2009 at 2:23 pm
DD
Point three was meant to allude to the weakening of the intellect through the passive entertainment-consumption hologram. Monkey see, monkey do. 61% of the CFFN gets their information from television. Ray Bradbury Fahrenheit 451 anyone? Joe Bagenet has covered this better than anywhere I have seen so far.
Unfortunately, the transition crowd seems to be unknowingly using an October revolution mentality. They see themselves as some kind of managemet team. Their thinking is too molded in dead thoughts that just will not fire up the human will.
I have been working towards the commune. Hang with like minded people, and let it roll. Hanging with like blood lines is over.
Only the selfless will die in peace.
2012? We can only run on fumes for so much time. Besides, the majority of peak people always saw 2010-2013 as ther major time window. The wave of hell seems to be on schedule. Make sure you are wearing clean underware.
XER
June 19, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Ya XER, I’m afraid you’re right. Like a lot of folks, I’d hoped we could keep the party going a bit longer. For nothing else but to allow more time to prepare. It’s becoming moron obvious by the day-week now that the fumes will only get us down the line a bit farther-longer. My guess is one more oil price spike and a lot of things will change overnight, like Germany in 1938.
We need JR to break out of self-inforced vakay and monitor the oil supply. I hear it’s high, for now.
Starting 1 July, the Hawaii state employees begin an essentially 4-day work week for 2 years, to 2011 What many don’t realize is that’s a permanent cut, and will likely be followed by others.
Recall Jerry Johnson used to advocate for universal debt forgiveness by the elite holding all the debt. Since those folks gambled with it and lost ever so much more, seems to me a small “boobie” prize to award a mortgage-free residence for those soon to stuck in the cul-de-sacs of suburbia, scratching to grow some food and figuring a new way to get to town. Give any extra houses not sold to the renters, so they don’t complain–proof of citizenship required.
June 19, 2009 at 5:27 pm
“Since those folks gambled with it and lost…”
“Those who made the laws have apparently supposed, that every deficiency of payment is the crime of the debtor. But the truth is, that the creditor always shares the act, and often more than shares the guilt, of improper trust. It seldom happens that any man imprisons another but for debts which he suffered to be contracted in hope of advantage to himself, and for bargains in which proportioned his own profit to his own opinion of the hazard; and there is no reason, why one should punish the other for a contract in which both concurred.”
Samuel Johnson 1758
June 19, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Dayum, more great comments
Far, AFAIK the bio-parents’ vehicle is a bigass black Navigator with an NRA sticker right next to a “pray to end abortion” sticker. The combined meaning of these, of course, is something like “protect the unborn now so we can shoot them later for trespassing”.
Doom, I have nothing against people carrying. Those two, though, happen to see it as their god-given right to meddle forcibly in others lives. (assume you meant that tongue-in-cheek though)
XER, great call on a lot of the transition people imagining themselves to be the vanguard of a sort of October revolution. Unfortunately there are a gazillion websites offering that type of stuff .. Ryan Crocker, anyone? Interesting that you brought up the commune stuff, though .. did you read all the past posts here about this? I spent some really fun time doing homework about Twin Oaks Community in Louisa, VA .. well, actually, it was more like an obsession for which I hadn’t yet done the necessary research. I’d love to hear your thoughts on intentional community when you get a chance.
Strangely enough, one of the most subversive things you can do in our culture is rid your household of the television and allow normal thought patterns to resume.
June 19, 2009 at 5:54 pm
N,
I have not read them.
There is a possibility for these associations to unfold at a stronger rate, as the population infolds upon itself. It could be argued that the most important thing that one brings to a commune setting is their actual state of mind. I don’t care if the candidate for addmitance is the best plumber et al. if that person is a total fucking ass hole on steroids, he/she will only devolve the association.
I think the number one factor for success is that the people involved needs focus on the way people think, and how well they can order their emotional life. This stuff has all been covered for centuries, but now it’s getting really fucking serious. We are talking about the survival and positive evolution of man. It’s in our hands right now.
I’ll be back, but hell fire, the tractor pull reruns just came on from last years championships and some guy in a GMC really kicked ass when I saw it live.
June 19, 2009 at 11:14 pm
A little update on Dubai: My wife and daughter visited my wife’s sister there last year. They described it much like a gold-plated Disneyland. There was actually work underway to air-condition a portion of the beach reserved for rich guests.
No more: property values are down; construction projects are being canceled and many of the several million expat workers are gettin’ outta Dodge. One of the hysterical side bars is that many of these workers are just leaving their cars at the airport–thousands of them.
Dubai is ruled by Sharia law and if you default on a debt you will probably go to jail. I understand there’s no air con in their jails. So, can’t make your car payments, skip town and leave the car.
Good deals can now be had on Mercedes, Beamers and Porches…etc. just call the Sheik.
June 20, 2009 at 12:07 am
I’m thinking missed opportunity. Helluva job Barrack!
“Is the United States, then, out of the hyperinflationary woods with its “quantitative easing” scheme? Maybe, maybe not. To the extent that the newly-created money will be used for real economic development and growth, funding by seigniorage is not likely to inflate prices, because supply and demand will rise together. Using quantitative easing to fund infrastructure and other productive projects, as in President Obama’s stimulus package, could invigorate the economy as promised, producing the sort of abundance reported by Benjamin Franklin in America’s flourishing early years.
There is, however, something else going on today that is disturbingly similar to what triggered the 1923 hyperinflation. As in Weimar Germany, money creation in the U.S. is now being undertaken by a privately-owned central bank, the Federal Reserve; and it is largely being done to settle speculative bets on the books of private banks, without producing anything of value to the economy.
”
http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/global_banking/the_weimar_hyperinflation:_could_it_happen_again?_20090520122/